Does this end the Apache speculation?

[AlanMcKillop]

Whilst trawling through my collection to help Paul Rossiter identify the echo units and amps as used by The Shadows (most of which I'll let him update on the TVS site), I came accross the sheet music for Quatermassters Stores which has a picture on the front claiming to be from that recording session. We know that QS was recorded on the same date as Apache, we also know that Bruce played Cliff's J200 on Apache, but played his electric on QS (as per the pic), but did Cliff actually play on QS as per the pic? Bruce seems to think not as you can't hear an acoustic on the record, but did confirm the photo was genuine.

I've said for a long time that I believed that Apache was recorded using an AC15 and despite everything that was said to the contrary, this surely must be conclusive evidence.

[Didier]

I came accross the sheet music for Quatermassters Stores which has a picture on the front claiming to be from that recording session.

Not sure it's from this session...

Didier

[Arpeggio]

As Jet is playing his Fender bass then that certainly dates the photograph to post - December 1959 and probably into 1960. Both "Apache" and "Quatermasster's Stores" were recored on June 17th 1960 and released in early July. This photograph has always been intriguing - but there is no conclusive proof that it was actually taken on June 17th, 1960. The fact that the photograph was used on the sheet music for "Quatermasster's stores" proves absolutely nothing at all.It could have been taken at any Cliff / Shadows recording session of that year. Cliff had 6 sessions with the Shads before June 17th - the photograph could have easily been taken at any one of those sessions - or even at the session for "A Voice In The Wilderness" on December 20th 1959. I have been fortunate enough to be able to personally ask Hank, Bruce, Jet and the late Tony Meehan about this - all separately (so no conferring) I might add. They were all absolutely adamant that Cliff did not ever play guitar on any recordings by the Shadows - not one. Period. If (if) the photograph was taken at the ".....Stores" session then it would presumably have been during some kind of sound balancing / routining / rehearsal run - through and not whilst the actual track was being recorded as a possible take for commercial release. So, definitely not on "Q Stores" or anything else. Whether or not he strummed his acoustic on any of his own recordings of that era is something that I've never really bothered to research.

Rob

[AlanMcKillop]

I know that nothing is conclusive, I'm asking questions based on the photograph.

Here is another clip from post Apache, when The Shads mimed to their recording on what Bruce called the first promo video, but was more likely a video disc, note the same AC15's.

[Arpeggio]

Hi Alan,
I wasn't meaning to contradict you as regards the amplifiers - I am definitely not qualified to pass comment on the amp models being used. Cross - purposes / 'crossed - wires'. No. I was referring to whether or not Cliff played guitar on "Quatermasster's Stores" specifically and any other Shadows tracks generally. The fact that Hank, Bruce, Jet, Tony and Brian Bennett all maintain that Cliff didn't play guitar on any Shadows tracks is good enough for me. As regards AC15s - I will most definitely leave that to the 'Amp Experts'.


Best wishes,

Rob

[wstagner]

Who really killed JFK?


Who's around here is good at computer foto enhancement?

[AlanMcKillop]

Hi Rob, no offence taken although the thread was about which amp was used for the recording of Apache, since there has been much speculation over the years. Since there appear to be no reliable definative answers to the question, I was trying to locate pictures within a timeline that would maybe give a clearer idea on the subject, but Cliff playing an acoustic guitar wasn't a starter for me in anycase, although there are some early Shadows tracks where an extra guitar can be heard, but that's for another day.

[Arpeggio]

Thanks Alan. 'Senior moment' for me! That's what I meant re: 'crossed - wires'! I somehow got onto the subject of Cliff / guitar instead of what you were trying to ascertain as regards amplification / amplifiers - viz: I inadvertently went straight 'off - topic'. I wasn't meaning to hijack or change the thread - but you obviously realised that!

Best wishes,

Rob

[Bojan]

Alan, what was the speculation about in the first place -- that Apache was recorded on something else than a Vox AC15? I always thought it was common knowledge that Apache and many of the earliest Shadows hits were recorded on an AC15 and that later Vox made the AC30 in response to their requests for a stronger amp.

[UlrichS]

Who's around here is good at computer foto enhancement?

I have tried my best with a hires scan and some gamma and contrast enhancements. To keep the details I have left the size as it was and keep fingers crossed that I can upload the pic.

Ulrich