The ShadowMusic Web Community

Dave,

I was not talking about "LIVE" performances.You don't have to be a "ROCKET SCIENTIST" to realize getting "THAT SOUND" in a live performance is almost impossible. Even the Shadows struggled to reproduce a "STUDIO/VINYL" sound, "LIVE".

No, we were arguing about achieving a "STUDIO SOUND" using "vintage" gear.You told me that you could achieve an "authentic" VINYL sound using cheap pickups etc. AND/OR DIGITAL EQUIPMENT. My argument was that you NEED original vintage gear I.E. Amps,Guitars,echo,pickups etc etc. I am not interested whatsoever in TRYING to get "percentages" close to "THAT SOUND", "LIVE" because as I said it's almost impossible. That LIVE example you gave me a link to,was unfortunately NOT a very good example. Don't know WHO recorded it,but it did you NO favors at all. I have heard worse,and most definitely heard MUCH better. Big place, tricky acoustics.

You need to back up your argument that you can replicate "THAT SOUND", and I "mean" THAT SOUND using standard pickups etc. home recorded,with amps mic ed up, digital,whatever.record it in your daw,wap,or mp3 send me a file,and i,ll listen to it and do an A/B comparison to a VINYL Shadows recording.This is what Paul Rossiter did.

What I am saying is with that NEW Echomatic, which is built to Meazzi spec, and one of my Vintage amps and a 50's CLASSIC PLAYER STRAT, fitted with "SLIDERS" pickups, I could get to within tiny percentages of the "ABBY ROAD" STUDIO/VINYL album sound. That soundbite I sent you of Kurt Froberg playing through the ECOMATIC, was STRAIGHT INTO AN AMP......."NO EQ WHATSOEVER".

So you think that spending a lot of money on a fancy echo chamber is going to give you the sound that you are hearing on those early Shadows records from Abbey Road ?
I think you'll find that Malcolm Addey was the person responsible for those sounds on record and that you are going to be very disappointed. Hank used all of that gear on stage at the time and rarely achieved his recorded sound in the percentages you speak of. Best of luck.

Pickups made with Heavy Formvar(or plain enamel ) that has resided on a spool for around 60 years...what a load of toss as a sale argument...
It's well known that the isolation layer on that wire deteriorate over the years....let alone the copper wire has resided for decades in the same place.
Then you " disturb" that wire and force it into a other shape....
I've handled dozens of pre-cbs guitars and the ones with pickup wire trouble is growing along the years.
I've handled a 58 maple neck with a - reading on the meter....bridge pu good sound...middle and neck very thin and weak...kinda half power.
All coursed by the deterioration of the insulation layer on the copper wire...

So you pay true your nose for a set of pu's made with "NOS" stuff ...while the guitar and the pu's on the hits were about a year old back then, when they create that sound.

The famous 34346 has a set of pu's with a different magnet-pole stagger then standard, the G pole is as short as the high E....that give a different string volume balance when picked(easy to hear on Apache and more hits)...and a different magnet field give a other response ....
So if your going for the last few % you need a set of those and a set of full nickel 13-56 dull strings for Apache....
For other numbers a set of 13-56 with a piece of cigarette paper on two strings on the nut...
Two drum Meazzi's who are working like cr*p in the same manner as the ones of Hank!
The 34346 strat wasn't setup by a pro at that time in GB because they weren't around in the same numbers as now....hence the cigarette paper....
The 34346 was longer used in the studio(Hanks words in private) then all anoraks with their list with dates telling us on the web...
Most important % that always will be missed in every scenario is Hank himself!!!

If he(Hank) really wanted to do the ultimate, to recreate that sound he just have to do a call to all of us on the websites and we all could lent him all our original gear in existence . Drum Meazzi and amp by Phill ....but that drum Meazzi still in working state, is not so crocked as the originals of Hank.
But the thing is....it's all old gear...while the stuff was new back then when the magic happened...

Trouble is Hank doesn't want to do that, because he told me... he just want the best sound possible in any situation from the start of his career till today...hence the change of gear at times....

But to be honest I'm like Dave, bin there done that and got the shirt!
There are more ways leading to Rome...and I hear along the years guys with "cheaper" stuff getting a sound more closely then some folks with the Rolls Royce gear...

Cheers Rob

Jetblack56 wrote:...on the original studio recording of "MOVE IT" Ernie Shear was the "lead" guitarist and he played a Hofner President,probably through a Selmer amp.

The amplifier was a Fender Deluxe (obviously, the tweed TV front model, around 14 - 15 watts output and not either the front-panel Deluxe or Deluxe Reverb as we know that amp today).

The Hofner President, incidentally, was a carved top acoustic model and not the electric version. It was equipped with a DeArmond FH-C pickup on a sliding rail, held in the bridge position for Move It, with a pencil rubber wedged underneath to make sure it didn't move away from the strings.

O dear....

Jim, now some of the trainspotters wants to know the brand and the grade of that pencil rubber....


Cheers Rob

JimN wrote:

Jetblack56 wrote:...on the original studio recording of "MOVE IT" Ernie Shear was the "lead" guitarist and he played a Hofner President,probably through a Selmer amp.

The amplifier was a Fender Deluxe (obviously, the tweed TV front model, around 14 - 15 watts output and not either the front-panel Deluxe or Deluxe Reverb as we know that amp today).

The Hofner President, incidentally, was a carved top acoustic model and not the electric version. It was equipped with a DeArmond FH-C pickup on a sliding rail, held in the bridge position for Move It, with a pencil rubber wedged underneath to make sure it didn't move away from the strings.

Sorry Jim I got the info about the Fender amp from Roberto and got the names mixed up, it was indeed a Deluxe TV, Roberto had one in the Nivram room.

I have been playing with four of my Fender Strats today, two fitted with Sliders and the USA AVRI '62 and the CIJ '62 RI.
I used my vintage gear, the 1960 Klemt Echolette through my 1960 Watkins Dominator, doing an A/B against the new Boss ~Katana with built in effects, including approximate echo settings for the Shads tunes.

Firstly, the two Fenders that have had no alterations of modification sounded exactly the same, one USA & one Japanese. These two guitars are so alike that it is difficult to tell them apart, they are that good. The sound is everything I expect from a 1962 Strat - and I do have one to compare.

The two Strats fitted with the Sliders pickups sounded equally good, but not better or more accurate in any way. One has a maple board, the other is a rosewood 'slab' board.

The sound from the Echolette tape echo through the Watkins Dominator is exquisite, the Dominator is what Dick Denny copied for the Vox AC15. Charlie Watkins confirmed that himself. Happy days there !

I then played the same pieces on those guitars through the Katana and although there was a difference, it was slightly 'cleaner' if anything, I would wage a bet that very few people who come to listen to us would hear a difference, although there is one, albeit minute in the mix.

The percentages spoken of would be there I'm sure, should I wish to bugger about for hours on end recording and moving microphones around, comparing with the records at every verse end, but do you know what ? I can't be arsed.
The main thing that I found out was that throwing money at expensive pickups isn't the answer, as Rob pointed out, those pickups were new on Hank's guitar, why pay a kings ransom for degraded old stock that will have lost it's freshness.
By the way, I paid £200 for a set of Sliders fifteen years ago and the second set were on an old Strat I bought, so I have proven to myself that buying them was not the best thing I ever did.
The pickups on my Jap Strat are as good a sound as any boutique pick ups, we just have to put it down to experience.

dave robinson wrote: ... and I think it's more down to the amplifier settings rather than any specific pickup …

Well, somebody once said that the best way of changing the sound of a guitar is to simply walk over to the amplifier and twiddle the knobs.

I do think though, that it's a shame people spend so much time and effort just to copy somebody else's sound. What's wrong with trying to develop your own?

Uncle Fiesta wrote:

dave robinson wrote: ... and I think it's more down to the amplifier settings rather than any specific pickup …

Well, somebody once said that the best way of changing the sound of a guitar is to simply walk over to the amplifier and twiddle the knobs.

I do think though, that it's a shame people spend so much time and effort just to copy somebody else's sound. What's wrong with trying to develop your own?

Yes, I agree. The most important thing is playing well...and frankly many people could do with brushing up in this area. What exact 'colour' HBM's Strat was in the day is an interesting subject but has absolutely no bearing on being able to play a guitar. I was a great Shadows fan back in the day from day one, but although I've probably owned about seven Strats, I don't even own one now.

dave robinson wrote: ... The most important thing is playing well...and frankly many people could do with brushing up in this area. What exact 'colour' HBM's Strat was in the day is an interesting subject but has absolutely no bearing on being able to play a guitar.

That's absolutely correct, but there has never really been a suggestion that the historical enquiries about guitars, amplifiers, effects units, drums, other instruments, the dance steps, stage suits, record labels, matrix numbers, re-releases, etc, etc, are necessarily about playing.

Lots of non-players are interested in all of those subjects, just as is the case with lots of other artists with big fan followings over the years. I was certainly interested in every aspect of The Shadows, their instruments, their recordings and their career in general, from the age of 10 onward. It was another three or four years before I was able to get my hands on a guitar (and that really only happened by accident).