Pickups...

[JimN]

...on the original studio recording of "MOVE IT" Ernie Shear was the "lead" guitarist and he played a Hofner President,probably through a Selmer amp.

The amplifier was a Fender Deluxe (obviously, the tweed TV front model, around 14 - 15 watts output and not either the front-panel Deluxe or Deluxe Reverb as we know that amp today).

The Hofner President, incidentally, was a carved top acoustic model and not the electric version. It was equipped with a DeArmond FH-C pickup on a sliding rail, held in the bridge position for Move It, with a pencil rubber wedged underneath to make sure it didn't move away from the strings.

Sorry Jim I got the info about the Fender amp from Roberto and got the names mixed up, it was indeed a Deluxe TV, Roberto had one in the Nivram room.

Well, it's bloomin' weird, but I was actually quoting Jetblack56 on the subject of the amp used by Ernie Shear on Move It, though I cannot now find the post which (erroneously) mentioned a Selmer amplifier.

I interviewed Ernie by phone over twenty years ago (definitely in the 1990s) for a submission to "Guitarist" magazine which they did use. The information about the Fender amp came directly from Ernie, as did the stuff about the guitar and the DeArmond pick-up (even the pencil eraser). When "Guitarist" published it, they used a picture of Ernie (not on the Move It session) playing a Hofner Committee in the studio and so changed my wording from "President" to "Committee". I'm sure they thought the photo was taken on that session (but it wasn't).

[I've found that post now - January 7th, 2010, about two pages above this post.]

[dave robinson]

During the past few days I have been pulling guitars apart and rebuilding them, interchanging and trying different pickups along the way. As a result of this I'm finding that there's an awful lot of rubbish talked about which pickups are best, or not.
I have set up a Strat with some expensive 'Sliders' piickups costing in excess of £200 and the guitar sounds amazing and very 'early Hank' sounding, with all the same tonal characteristics that contribute to THAT SOUND - whichever one you choose dependant on how you set up the amplifier.
I then removed the 'Sliders' and fitted some Seymour Duncan Alnico Pro II pickups, carefully setting the pickup height the same as the 'Sliders' only to find them equally good, albeit very slightly different but in a good way.
This prompted further investigation and I did the same with some Ironestone, Toneriders and cheap ones costing £19.99 that came on a pickguard with the knobs and switch from AGC guitars that I bought recently.
I have to say that all of them did the business, it's just a case of careful 'set up', getting the heights to the optimum level, getting the bridge and nut levels correct, even with light gauge strings (9/42) after using 11/52 & my current 10/46, the sound is there in spades.
I have heard some poor pickups, normally glassy, harsh sounds on some cheaper guitars, but these are usually the ones with the bar magnet underneath them, ceramics I believe. The ones I have are all alnico, even the really cheap ones and I'm realising that it's all in the set up, after all how many times have people said that pickups are just wire wrapped around magnets ? A crude assumption I agree, but I don't think that the high prices are warranted given that there is so little difference in the examples that I had at my disposal.
I have some Kinman and Fender Noiseless that I no longer use and fancy giving those a crack, just to see that if with more care in the set up, it may be possible to achieve similar results, sound-wise to the normal pickups.

I'm answering my own post here from 2014 when I was doing all of this whilst recovering from cancer, at it helped pass the time.
I did try the Kinman traditional pickups and the Fender Vintage Noiseless and I tweaked them until I got somewhere close to what I was looking for and I'm very pleased with them as they work well for me.
Also, I found that I was getting conflicting problems with my hearing since the chemotherapy had damaged my ability to hear correctly, so I went for a hearing test in 2016.
I was amazed at the damage that had been done when I saw the graph of my hearing loss and after a lot of trials using hearing aids of various types,I got my hearing back to as close as it should be. This has made a massive difference to my life, especially for people around me who had to endure the radio & TV at levels that I could hear 'normally'.
From the mid frequency at around 900hz, my hearing was totally blitzed and I had no top end in my hearing, causing me to miss important parts of conversation and resulting in me pushing the treble on my guitar amp, making it totally wrong in the mix. Once I had the aids fitted and adjusted, it was easy to set up my gear and hear the subtle differences in tone when playing my music, something which I had been robbed of without me realising it had happened.
This explains how I am now able to listen to recordings of my favourite music and then replicate it pretty accurately once again and it has actually rekindled my interest in wanting to play my guitar more that I was doing. I also suspect that my hearing was impaired before the chemo to some extent, because when I listen back to some of my recorded stuff I don't think it was all as good as it sounded to me at the time I was recording and mixing it. I did ask my audiologist about this and apparently we all suffer some deterioration in our hearing due to age, more so playing in bands. Food for thought.

[Jetblack56]

Dave,

interesting reading your post about your experiments with different pickups You say there is an awful lot of rubbish talked about which pickups are BEST. Equally there is an awful lot of sense talked about which pickups are BEST. I think it will ALWAYS be in contention. My interpretation of "THAT SOUND" will probably be different from yours or somebody else.

You and me will probably NEVER agree on this subject but,I will TRY to inject some arguments for Why ALNICO 5, and in particular "SLIDERS" pickups will ALWAYS be better than cheap pickups. As i,m sure you know ALNICO magnets are created with a mixture of metals. ALUMINIUM ,NICKEL, and COBALT AL-NI-CO.

Generally, Alnico magnets are known for being smooth and melodic, but there are differences between the different alloy compounds…ALNICO II, and ALNICO 5. The Alnico II’s are characterized by being quite smooth in the lows and highs, offering a warm, vintage sound. These are often praised for being some of the most organic and dynamic pickup magnets on the market. Alnico IIs are a go-to option for jazz players who are looking for a wonderfully smooth clean tone. A popular pickup containing these magnets is the Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates.

Alnico V. This magnet is much stronger, offering a tight bass response. The much hotter Alnico V is similar to the Alnico II, although it produces a larger range between the highs and lows with a bit of a "MID SCOOP" which i,m sure you ALSO, know is an essential characteristic of the EARLY Shadows sound especially. Alnico V pickups are usually good all-around magnets and these magnets are perfect for the players looking for a little extra clarity while using high gain without sacrificing an organic clean sound.

Ceramic magnets are given a bad reputation when compared to Alnico which is probably due to their association with cheaper instruments. They provide a different flavor from Alnico. There are fantastic pickups on the market which utilize Ceramic magnets, such as the DiMarzio Titan and the Seymour Duncan Black Winter. Ceramic magnets are quite strong and as such are normally hotter. They produce "PRONOUNCED MIDS" and a quick bass response. The strong magnets allows the pickup to retain articulation and clarity, even when introduced to extreme gain, which makes for a great choice for fast-paced metal. Not really THE choice for "EARLY SHADOWS" music.

The consensus is that Ceramic falls short of the sweeter Alnico when it comes to clean tones. Although not impossible to produce a great clean tone with Ceramic, sometimes the harmonic saturation and natural compression of the magnet can cause ice-picking and a less organic sound.

I think me and you will just have to agree, to disagree. I have watched some of your videos and you ARE a really good player, and a GOOD live sound is very difficult to achieve you do a pretty good job.

Stephane

Opinions are what makes it interesting but I can prove that money is wasted on thee boutique pickups, don't forget that I too fell for the same crap.
In fact I'm posting some stuff that I worked on only today with Sliders and some stuff with run of the mill Japanese pickups, just have a listen and you should hear that they are the same.
Have a listen to WONDERFUL LAND.

https://soundcloud.com/dave-robinson-85 ... cij-hc-mp3

[dave robinson]

APACHE recorded with the expensive Siders pickups.

https://soundcloud.com/dave-robinson-85 ... -betty-mp3

PEACE PIPE NOT WITH SLIDERS PICKUPS - THESE ARE JAPANESE CHEAP ONES ON MY CIJ STRAT

https://soundcloud.com/dave-robinson-85 ... pe-cij-mp3

[Jetblack56]

Ok Dave,

first of all let me say that "I HAVE NOT FELL FOR THAT CRAP" simple reason I don't think it IS crap. I have just spent a LONG time "explaining why".

Secondly, I didn't "truthfully" like the sound of ANY of the pickups. You demo.

I listened to ALL the tracks on my SENNHEISER HD 650 PHONES. The playing is good,but on "Wonderful Land" sounds like too much compression or something, very harsh sounding. I do not like the Hall & Collins that's why I never bought one. Anyway to me,does not sound ANYTHING like what I hear on Vinyl from the Shads. Not helped i,m sure by not using the original backing track (Hank separated)

Apache backing sounds original but seriously, A/B comparison to the Shads the lead sounds terrible. As does PEACE PIPE

Sorry Dave but THAT proves me right.

Stephano

[dave robinson]

Can you please explain why you are proved right ? You've just told me that the lead guitar sound on Apache is crap, but they are the Sliders pickups that you are raving about.
Also there is no compression used whatsoever, so now I'm beginning to wonder about your credibility as you like to bandy fancy names around in order to impress, then make statements like those. Also, Wonderful Land is the original 1962 backing track without the strings, which I added , given to me by Roberto, who had it given by Malcolm Addey, so you blew it again with that statement.
Whether you think the sound is good or not, it's what it is and that's how those pickups sound recorded this way.
I'd like to add that I wasn't making an attempt to sound like the recordings, I was showing how the pickups were almost identical.
Perhaps we should await the arrival of you new echo box, followed by your sound files to show us all how it should sound, I look forward to that.

[artyman]

I'd be interested to know what setting you used on your Katana amp for those two tracks. Great sound

[dave robinson]

The settings on the Katana were set up through my computer with the Boss Tone thingy software.
I'll have a look what the tone settings are and publish them here if you like them.
I took a line out of the Katana into my Focusrite which connects to my Mac Mini where I use Logic 10 software to mix, though as I said there was nothing added, it was all the sound of the pickups / Gemini III /H&C into the amp.

[Jetblack56]

Dave,

just get OUT, from up your own arse.

The original disagreement was that YOU said you DON'T need QUOTE a Meazzi,an original Vox AC15/30 a Strat fitted with "vintage" pickups to get "THAT SOUND" And I said YOU DO. I took a long time explaining the merits of using "vintage pickups" such as sliders. Ceramic pickups will NOT get you "THAT SOUND". Phil Kelly fitted "Sliders" to his Strat. He played it through an "original" Meazzi,and through an "original" TV front VOC AC30/4......SURPRISE !!!! Phil Kelly gets "THAT SOUND". So, the reason YOU can't get "THAT SOUND" is because your playing through a bloody Katana amp,using a Hall and Collins.

A Strat fitted with "vintage" pickups and played through a Meazzi into a JMI VOX AC15, or JMI VOX AC30, WILL get you "THAT SOUND"

A Strat fitted with cheap ceramic pickups and played through a Hall & Collins into a Katana amp, DOES NOT GET YOU "THAT SOUND"

A Strat fitted with "SLIDERS" pickups and played through a Hall & Collins into a Katana amp DOES NOT GET YOU "THAT SOUND"

So YOU blew it.

[Iain Purdon]

Hey!! Enough with the rude language. I don’t want to read it. That’s why we have a code of conduct on this site. Please comply with it.

I thank you.

Iain