Some observations from a relatively new player

[Rosemary]

Hi
It's been awhile since I posted though I regularly read the messages.
After starting to teach myself guitar about 4 years ago I've now heard lots of different guitars, echo units, styles of playing etc. at our Shadows club as well as playing with a few different setups of our members myself.

I still don't know a lot about sound and settings though lots more than I used to but what I really love is that there's such a great variety of different sounds that to me all sound fantastic for Shadows songs.

My favourite units I've tried myself either at home or at the club are the TVS3 and Magic Stomp with EFTP but I've heard some wonderful sounds from other units too and think a lot depends on the player. Probably the best Apache gallop I've heard at one of our meetings was from an amp with built in effects and played brilliantly.

Sometimes I use the Boss DD-7 at home and especially like it with certain songs like Gonzales. It's not much like the original sound but I just like playing that song with that unit.

The songs I have most sound problems with are mainly the Burns songs that I have no idea how to replicate on a Strat. The best sound I get for The Savage at home is with the Roland MicroCube on 'Mic' amp setting and a Zoom unit and EFTP. It's an unlikely setting and was totally accidental but to me it sounds better than the AC15 for that particular song at home.

Something else I notice at home is that my perception of the sound changes a lot depending on the volume of the backing track I'm playing to. Turning the backing volume up or down seems to alter what I hear from my guitar. Then some days I'll like the sound and the next day without making any changes I won't like it.

I always play better if I like the sound I'm hearing but I try not to get too pre-occupied with the sound as being a late starter I have to practise a lot to make up for lost time.

Best wishes
Rosemary

[dave robinson]

You certainly have the right idea Rosemary, it is the player all the way down the line, from the way the guitar is set up as well as the amp and echo and of course the input from the fingers and soul. The main thing is to enjoy the music, after all that's what it's about, it isn't a contest like some seem to want to make it.

You have come a long way in the four years I have seen you around here and you seem to have grasped quite a bit of knowledge on the subject.
I know we go on about having the right sound a lot, maybe too much really, but I find that 90% of an audience would be happy hearing Apache played through a Vox Valvetronix or something similar, with a single tap echo - that's a fact. There are plenty of videos of The Shadows where Hank doesn't have the echo that is on the records and the audience still love him.
I've seen too many folks with all the right gear not getting it right, we are sometimes our own worst enemies, just enjoy the experience.

[noelford]

"I always play better if I like the sound I'm hearing"

Rosemary, that sums it up and is exactly the way I see it. Dogmatically pursuing someone else's sound to within the nth degree of perfection is not my idea of enjoying playing the guitar. Find the sound you like and it is irrelevant if the multi-taps and all the other stuff are not mathematically authentic to the original.

[Rosemary]

Hi Dave and Noel
Thanks for your comments. I usually just do the daily practice sessions with the MicroCube and echo units because the AC15 holds me back a bit as I'm conscious of making too much noise. With the MicroCube and lower volumes I can hit the strings as hard as needed etc. and most of the time I'm very happy with the sound in the small space I have to practise.

My Strats only have standard pickups but when I play through the gear of the members I'm very happy with the tone so don't think I need to change pickups or anything like that. Both Strats need a professional setup as they have a couple of quirky things that need fixing but apart from that I'm happy and can always find a patch or sound I like for the various songs even if it's not exactly like the original sound.

Best wishes
Rosemary

[dave robinson]

I have a lot of experience in chasing pickups and have learned the hard way that 95% of the time it's better to stay with the stock pickups on a Fender.
OK, I did make a change to one Strat, my Premium MIJ came with Texas Specials that were great, but not for what I wanted, so I fitted some Seymour Duncan Alnico Pro II.
I also spent a lot of money on some Australian Sliders pickups for my old Strat and they were worth every penny. I've tried Ironstone @ £26 a set and Tone Riders Vintage @ £65 and they're all good, but that said I discovered it was other things that needed to be addressed as the stock pickups were fine.
I tried the Kinmans' back in 1999 and for me they were a mistake for the sound I was seeking. I do however have a USA DeLuxe Strat with Vintage Noiseless pickups and they work well for me. The most important thing with pickups is the correct adjustment in height for optimum effect. If they're too low you'll feel it and the same if they're too high.
I found out accidentally one day just by changing a pick-guard.

[Iain Purdon]

It's not much like the original sound but I just like playing that song with that unit...

As Noel said, that's fine. Get sounds you like and use them. Better to be happy and making a decent noise than worried because you don't sound exactly like some bloke who did it 50 years ago.

my perception of the sound changes a lot depending on the volume of the backing track I'm playing to. Turning the backing volume up or down seems to alter what I hear from my guitar...

Yes indeed. You may see the BT and your guitar as two separate things but the mixture is what determines the overall effect. You are effectively part of a band and everything blends for the ears of the audience. Also your patches at a home sound level will not sound the same if you are performing more loudly in a hall, so you have to choose them and refine them in situ.
Most people here are chasing the Marvin sound. I'm not. As a bass player, I have studied Jet, Licorice, John and Alan's recordings in particular, trying to figure out how they each sound so recognisably different and what I need to do to get a close match while on stage. Dance On gives an interesting illustration. The bass is mainly on one side of the stereo with not much else getting in the way. Listen to that on its own and you hear quite a rounded almost twangy sound on the bass notes. Play the record properly and all those upper end harmonics get lost in the overall mix -- you don't hear them because there are competing harmonics coming from the rhythm guitar, cymbals and snare -- and what stands out as different is the bottom end thud. It's actually that, plus the way he syncopates as he plays, that defines the Licorice sound to my ears.

So, yes, it'll be the way you play that determines the Rosemary sound, plus whatever pickups and patches appeal to your ears when you're doing it. The important thing is to have fun

[abstamaria]

I suppose there are, as in any interest, different types of people in this forum. Some like to play the guitar with their own sound, others focus on the guitars and gear, others the recordings and discography. They enjoy the Shadows in different ways. In my case, what interested me has been Hank's early sound and how to capture it and play like him, and that remains my fascination and quest. I suppose though that that is the goal of all of us here - if we wanted to play completely in in our own style and with our own sound, why would we be in a Shadows site? The difference might be the degree with which we pursue that Holy a Grail.

Listening intently to the old recordings, figuring out Hank's style and technique, understanding his nuances, looking for the strings, amps, to replicate it, practicing to sound like him, those are all fun for me. Frustrating often, but fun. That is probably because I never figured myself as a musician, just an amateur chasing the "sound."

Best regards to you, Rosemary, all,

Andy

[abstamaria]

That is very interesting, Iain. I will tell our bass guitarist Anna to be sure to read your post.

Andy

[dave robinson]

I appreciate all angles on the way folks want to pursue their dream, hobby, passion or making a living but I have said this before and I will repeat it here for the benefit of those who think that they have to break the bank to do it - YOU DON'T.

A Squier Classic fifties or sixties Strat or anything above that will suffice as a guitar. A Vox AC-4 is the perfect amp and their are several choices of echo these days.
At the cheaper end I have the Etap2hw which nails it perfectly - no more than £200 built for you by Ecca and that's the valve version. For £130 you can buy the Etap2hw pedal. I know that Daniel Martin has this, he told me about it - awesome. Then there's the Catalinbread which comes in at £180, i have one and it's superb. Also the new Zoom G3 0r G3X which you can programme yourself or buy programmes for it. The unit is between £89 & £149 depending on which model and where you buy it, again excellent.
Then of course there are more expensive models like the ESE Echomatic which is the real thing as it's a tape echo but hard to find, there's the TVS3 that Hank uses which I have owned and is excellent, though expensive. There are Magicstomps, Alesis Quad GT and of course the forthcoming Hall & Collins echo that is due to be released, knowing Charlie it will be excellent too, but is rumoured to be around £600.

So, you pays yer money and you makes yer choice, but if you can only afford the lower end kit, i.e. Etap2hw , Vox AC-4, Squier Classic Vibe Strat, all of which you can buy new @ £700 but if you shop around like I did and pay under £500, I will guarantee it will give the sound that is so hotly debated on this site. If it doesn't , I'm afraid it's down to you, but help is always at hand, just ask.

What I'm saying is that for below the price of a supposedly quality Strat, you could have the lot.

[Rosemary]

Hi Dave, Iain and Andy
Thanks for all the information. It's become even more interesting to me at present being away and playing my backup Squier yesterday with a MicroCube and no echoes. I definitely miss the echoes for Apache but am getting some very interesting tones from this setup. This is the Bullet Squier the cheapest of all I think. It is a bit tricky to keep it in tune but seems to be settling in now. It has lighter strings and a much lower action (and the trem doesn't work at all as it's fixed in place and doesn't move - I know in theory how to alter that but am a bit short of time so am just trying to get a little practice in until I'm home).

I'd really like to hear it with nice echoes. It's certainly easier for me to play than my Strats at home but I think the higher action and heavier strings on the Strats at home would probably give a better Shadows sound. On the other hand this Squier gives some nice sounds I don't get on the Strats at home. It gives a cleaner sound for a start.

I once tried a Classic Vibe in a shop when buying my last amp and thought it was a beautiful guitar to play too.

Best wishes
Rosemary