EARLY SHADS AMPS IN DISCOGRAPHY ORDER??

[Stratpicker]

I think we all know that The Shads used the Watkins Westminster before upgrading to the Dominator in 1961 – oh sorry – that was MY group!!
Seriously though – By using The Shadows chronological Discography, do we know when the AC30 was first used for recording instead of the AC15 and then when the AC30TB came in to replace theAC30
When trying to get “that sound”, I’m unsure whether to use AC15, AC30 or AC30TB settings on my Amp Modeller. What might be right for Apache will not be right for say Atlantis with regard to amps.
Any ideas?
Cheers
Stratpicker

[AlanMcKillop]

This will be interesting, why? Information contained in the Vox publications seem to be contradicted by photo's and recorded television appearances which clearly show the amps that were used during the early 60's.

There was a thread on the old MSN site where this cropped up and there were some suggestions that Apache could have been recorded on an AC15 because TV footage showed these amps being used well after the recording dates of certain songs. Bruce made a comment at Shadowmania a few years back, that Apache was recorded using AC30's and that it was easier to transport the AC15's to the studios for TV recordings. However, even if that was the case, why would they use the AC15's at gigs if they had AC30's?

The Cliff Richard Shows ran quite regularly over 1960-1962 and you can see the timeline of the amps in use; Selmer Truevoice, AC15 (TV two tone), AC15 (beige), AC30/4 (beige) and AC30/6 through this period. If they used the larger amps in some of the later shows, then why not use them when they were first available? I don't buy the explanation that Bruce gave and can think of several things (the white Tele for example that he didn't play) that have been said, not to mislead anyone, but just that their memories didn't remember the finer details that we all want to know 50 years on.

[David Martin]

I'm certainly no expert on this stuff so this might be all wrong, but my assumptions from listening are:

Early stuff up to about Kon Tiki: AC15 orAC30/4: which I think had the same tone shaping and preamp.

Wonderful Land to just before Shindig: AC30/6

Shindig onwards: AC30 Top Boost.

The late Roberto Pistolesi had a very definite list in his book "That Sound" but he was renowned for the "unusual" nature of some of his "findings" (and also for being a very sweet human being.)

[JimN]

I'm certainly no expert on this stuff so this might be all wrong, but my assumptions from listening are:

Early stuff up to about Kon Tiki: AC15 orAC30/4: which I think had the same tone shaping and preamp.
Wonderful Land to just before Shindig: AC30/6
Shindig onwards: AC30 Top Boost.

I think Geronimo (the follow-up to Shindig) was recorded quite a bit earlier than Shindig, moving it back into your suggested AC30/6 period. And there is evidence at least as early as mid-1961 that Hank (at least) had a TB add-on unit in his AC30...

JN

[roger bayliss]

Is the AC30/6 the AC30 treble amp often talked about after the AC30/4. How different is the AC30/6 to the top boosted variety ?

On the Heritage series EF86 Chl bright switch at pos 2 must be the AC30/4 sound then the pos 1 AC30 treble amp sound and off normal. Plus top boost chl. Surely one of the best modern amps for this stuff albeit the brilliance circuit is slightly different which Amanda can mod for a cob and a H2O if you talk nicely

[MeBHank]

In the last 18 months or so I've done a lot of research on the amplifiers, echoes and guitars used by the Shads from 1959 to 1961 and I've learned a lot. I also believe that there is no publication that can be truely accurate, as the gear the Shads were seen to use for performances was not necessarily the gear they were using for recording at the time.

Wonderful Land to just before Shindig: AC30/6

Wonderful Land was almost definitely recorded on a circuit three amp, making it an AC30/4 that was used in the studio. It has the warm depth of the EF86 valve and not the brightness of slightly later recordings. I'm not sure of the the individual tune dates (I don't have Malcolm and Rob's excellent book), but I'm pretty positive that anything recorded between Apache and Wonderful Land would have been an amp using the EF86 valve, most likely to have been excusively the AC30/4 (seeing as all prototype Vox amps were made for the Shads before going to production).

Bruce made a comment at Shadowmania a few years back, that Apache was recorded using AC30's and that it was easier to transport the AC15's to the studios for TV recordings. However, even if that was the case, why would they use the AC15's at gigs if they had AC30's?

Alan, that was probably because on TV appearances the amps were have been back-miked and the volume and balance in the studio was not important. I have a friend who performed on live TV once in the seventies and he said it was an awful playing experience, sound-wise. The mix in the room is/was not important to the TV crews, it's the mix that comes across to the viewer that matters. The extra volume the AC30s provided would have only been necessary on larger gigs, such as theatres, where the only people hearing the music were those present at the venue. Also, the Top-Boost's purpose was only to make sure Hank's guitar could be heard clearly above the rest of the band. In the studio/on record he could be heard clearly without having to sacrifice tone.

I've maintained for quite a while now, after conversations with various people "in the know", that the guitars and amps used on recordings were most likely not the ones that the Shads were seen using on stage. Jim Elyea's recent book Vox Amplifiers - The JMI Years has a picture showing Hank in the studio (possibly the Flingel Bunt session) using a Vox "Long Tom" Echo, believe it or not! There we have proof that Hank experimented in the studio with different gear. But he would have had only a basic set up for performances, as the photos of gigs prove.

I'm not sure about the music recorded after Wonderful Land as I've never been that enamoured with the sounds made from the other amps so have not studied them nearly so extensively as I have the early EF86 Voxes, but here's the list I believe to be accurate:

Selmer Truevoice
Vox AC15 (TV front, two tone finish, likely the earlier circuit two model)
Vox AC30/4 (TV front, cream diamond finish, single speaker - these were the first AC30s, before the twin speaker version was developed)
Vox AC30/4 (TV front, cream diamond finish, two speaker version - only 12 were made for the Shadows, one of which is now owned by Phil Kelly)
Vox AC30/6 (though AC30/4s and AC15s had been made with the now classic split front design by this time, these were the first Vox amps the Shadows used that featured that look - they were also the first Vox amps to be made that did not include the EF86 valve: the start of the decline in sound, in my opinon!)
Vox AC30/6 Treble (Roger, I have not heard a Vox AC30/6 (non Treble version) since I started studying this, so cannot speak from experience, although there would naturally be a noticeable increase in brightness, but I can say for definite that there is a vast difference in sound between the Treble and Top-Boost models)
... and finally...
Vox AC30/6 Top-Boost

I am unsure if Hank's first use of the Top-Boost pre-amp was in conjuction with the first AC30/6s or the AC30/6 Treble models. I'm certain he did not use it with the AC30/4, although his use of the AC30/4 in the studio may well have overlapped with the use of the Top-Boost unit on his performance amps, which wouyld have been AC30/6s, possibly the Treble model.

Anyway, HTH...

J

[David Martin]

All great stuff... keep it coming.

[Stratpicker]

"anything recorded between [i]Apache and Wonderful Land would have been an amp using the EF86 valve, most likely to have [/i]been excusively the AC30/4 (seeing as all prototype Vox amps were made for the Shads before going to production)."

So - if this is true - where does the much heralded original AC15 , the HolyGrail (supposedly) of Shads amps sit in all this?? If Apache onwards was the AC30/4, when, if ever, did the AC15 feature in recordings.
The reason for my interest is that using the AC15 model, I CANNOT get the sound I think I am looking for BUT to use the AC30 model, back off the treble and select 1 x 12 Vox speakercab, I get what I think is a better tone. I know all this is subjective though - hence my interest.
cheers
Stratpicker

[AlanMcKillop]

The Shadows most certainly played through AC15's and there are plenty of photo's and TV footage to confirm this. Both the AC15 and AC30/4 were very similar in design (except for the obvious) as The Shads had requested from an output perspective, 'two' AC15's in one unit. I'm sure they would sound very similar as well, perhaps the AC30/4 having a bit more bottom end due to the 2 x 12's which were fitted. I bought a custom made AC15 two tone amp with original Goodmans Audiom speaker from Roger Allcock and I've got to say, it's the best amp I've ever had. I've had most, though not an AC30/4, but this sounds great and as someone who has never really chased getting 'that sound', this does nicely for me and produces a sound that I like.

We'll never know what amps were used in the studio just as we'll never know if the 'original' strat was used for recording (and on what tunes) after the JMI issue of the matching Fenders. We rely on memories from those who say they know (but there are still variances in their respective accounts) and we can't criticise either, because they would have had no idea that some 50 years on questions like this would still be asked.

One thing that should also be taken into account when listening to the records of the day, is that recording methods (both technical and equipment) would be regularly updated with engineers and producers seeking new boundaries and this would also have affected the output sound, so not all changes to the recorded sound was down to the bands gear.

Justin, on the early Cliff shows, the AC15's can clearly be seen mic'd at the front.

[Amanda]

Hi From West wales!

The early ac15' s first used by the shadows were actually the cream / diamond pattern as can be seen
in one photo where Jet is the only one with an ac15 as above, these early ac15's used the Goodmans Audiom 60
as I have fitted in the 1962 AC15 at the moment!

Regarding "the holy grail" sound, the AC15 circuit 3 and the AC30/4 should both give this because the main
difference in the circuits is the addition of a bigger mains transformer, a bigger output transformer and
4 el84's instead of two to give 30w as opposed to 15.

Other than that the preamps are much the same.

Amanda