Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby dave robinson » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:06 am

gibbo3272 wrote:Hello Dave, terrific comparison and I believe you have achieved what you set out to do. Without getting into the pedantics of what gear is right or wrong the sound you achieved sounds great to me and I’m sure many other players would be happy to get that sound on budget gear. In a previous post you exposed an SX Guitar, I did purchase one new - a VTG Series - for $190 (Australian dollars), combined with a Zoom G3 or a Vox ToneLab ST (both can be purchased on the auction sites for about $A100) together with a Joyo ACtone pedal ($A50 new) and that combination can achieve a sound that many players would be satisfied with, so as you have set out to demonstrate budget or wrong gear can save us dollars (or pounds). Keep up the good work.
Geoff


Thank you for understanding what this is about Geoff.
I still have my metallic blue SX Strat that cost me £80 and I'm going to put some stuff together on Youtube with that guitar too.
I also have a Joyo AC pedal as well as the Hall & Collins echo, Blue Nebula echo and the real deal type echo, the Klemt Echolette as well as a varispeed Copicat, all of which I will feature in future demonstrations to try and show why, or why not it would be beneficial to buy these things.
I initially chose the Boss Katana to do these tracks because I know that many people on here bought them and were wondering if they could do the business and clearly they can.
On the last couple of tracks, Midnight and Man Of Mystery, I substituted the Katana with my 1960 Watkins Dominator, an all valve, vintage amp, similar to the Vox AC15.
On stage I now use my Katana 100 head for effects only, through my Fender Twin Reverb Tone Master that is very manageable to carry and it pleases me to see it behind me, as I used the real Twin Reverb for over twenty years in my Dave Berry days when we were in the charts, but in all honesty the JBL speakers made it too harsh and loud for Shadows music and I struggled to 'tame' it, prompting me to buy a Vox AC30 again. The problem with that was not all AC30s are the same and I went through four or five before finding a good one, it can be a costly business. :)
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby Tab » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:29 pm

One crucial factor concerning the sound of Apache which is often overlooked is the picking position and the use of the tremolo arm. Picking over the middle pickup makes a huge difference, in my opinion. Remember that Hank's playing style when this was recorded was to not hold on to the trem arm all the time as he does now which automatically leads to picking over the middle pickup. Furthermore, if you listen carefully, the use of the trem is very subtle and no use at all where many people, commonly, use it.

Just an observation.
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby dave robinson » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:17 pm

I noticed on the black and white video of The original Shadows playing Apache that Hank seems to play mostly over the middle pickup. :idea:
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby nivramarvin » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:06 pm

If you like, you can guess what kind of guitar was played here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hoks8hz2g6sq6 ... X.mp3?dl=0

The solution to the riddle: It's not a guitar, but a MIDI track that I edited in my Logic software. All the rest of it comes from a MIDI file too, including the rhythm guitar.

Just for fun!
Last edited by nivramarvin on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby Uncle Fiesta » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:15 am

I'd be more than happy to get the sound that Dave did in his video, 'wrong' gear notwithstanding.

Remember also, that if you're doing an ordinary gig (i.e., not at a Shadows gathering) then your audience is unlikely to contain many Shadows purists. When I was gigging I used the same gear for Shadows tunes as for everything else - a Les Paul, through a Boss DD3 delay pedal, into a Marshall amp - and nobody ever came up and told me it sounded wrong (although in my opinion it definitely did!).
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby abstamaria » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:55 pm

I suppose that, if one isn’t attempting to copy Hank’s style and the sound of the original 1960s recording (now 60 years old!), there is no such thing as “wrong” gear. Just add echoes if desired and sweeten to taste.

Now, if the objective is to do very, very well in an A/B comparison, the most efficient approach will probably be to remove the variables and use gear as close to what Hank used. But that was not Dave’s goal, as he has explained. That is Dave’s own, good interpretation of Apache. In the general style of the Shadows.

Andy
Last edited by abstamaria on Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby ovation553 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:26 pm

hi dave
well impressed with the sound you got well impressed with the microverb 4 and as qthers have there is little or no differences between the various guitars you have used .I really liked the man of mystery you really nailed that one...so i guess ill just keep practising...once again great demo hope that will inspire people...you dont really have to spend too much dosh to get the sound
best regards charlie
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby dave robinson » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:37 am

I'm pleased that people are seeing the point of what I'm trying to get across here. The reason I did it is because of numerous questions I have had from people who somehow don't seem to be satisfied with the sound they are achieving with their own kit, but in all honesty ought to be getting roughly what I'm showing here.
This is how these pieces of equipment sound when hooked together, without any deliberate effort to copy Hank's sound, it's what it is.
Numerous times I've watched Hank play and he doesn't get the old sound either, he has had many variations but his trade mark style is always evident. I saw a video of him on YouTube last night and he was using a Watkins Copicat on top of his Vox AC 30 (or it could have been the 'Shadow' echo I saw in Sheffield) but the box is the same as it's a Watkins product - it's hard to make out the detail on the top of it on the video. It looks as if it was from around the same period as John Farrar is with him. The point is that he sounded great, but not like he did in 1960.
I'm going to try and make some recordings with the 'right' gear and try to remember Hank's picking technique and see how close we can get, I will of course need to get heavier strings on one of the Strats', as well as get the Vox AC 30/4 and the Echolette in the chain. It'll be fun but I won't hold my breath and I guarantee the punters at our gigs won't give a flying toss what gear I'm using - which says it all really because like me, they just enjoy the music. ;)
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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby abstamaria » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:43 am

APACHE WITH THE RIGHT GEAR

My goal as to Shadows pieces differs from those of Dave and several here, in that I wanted simply to sound exactly like Hank Marvin did in those old, original records. I wanted, and still want to, play Apache exactly as Hank did in the 1960 pressing. If he tripped on a note or skipped one, why, I’d do that too. That is quite a goal, considering my limited skills.

I also set my standards, not based on what the average listener at a gog might find “spot on” (he mightnot even remember the name of the piece!), but on my personal assessment of my sound. I’m a harsh critic there. That is true whether I’m in the studio, doing an A./B comparison while practicingor learning by myself, or on stage.

I didn’t care to prove that one could be in the ballpark of That Spund by tweaking computers or using other equipment. I wanted to cut the variables, considering the odds stacked against me, by using gear as close as possible to what Hank might have used.

The echoes of course posed a special problem, as the Meazzi, which requires adjustment for each piece, isn’t suitable for a live show. So, there, I relied on Charlie Hall’’s units and later the TVS3.

I recall Bruce Welch saying, in response to Roberto Pistolesi (he did a very close cover, to my ears), that Pistolesi only proved that one could come close to Hank’s sound using a Gretsch. That isn't my goal; I just want to copy Hank!

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Re: Apache - with all the wrong gear, now on YouTube

Postby abstamaria » Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:23 am

I am sure someone can replicate the drum used for the intro and outro of Apache on a computer or keyboard, but, when we learned Cliff used a Chinese drum, we used one too!

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10010&hilit=Apache+Chinese+drum


I once used my Roland TD6 drum kit to do this by tuning the big tom tom to the same pitch as the one used on the record and it does work. The problems really begin with getting the rest of the kit and the rhythm guitar and bass tones to match.
I have the Gibson J200 and Fender P Bass, but it isn't easy to get the sound identical. That opening chord has an unmistakable sound, which is one reason I use the Shads BT a lot to try and get the lead sound close. The Kingston EP gives possibly the best example of Hank getting close, as he used roughly the same echo but with an AC30 and rosewood FB Strat, so I'm convinced that something in the studio that Malcolm Addey used was what provided the missing 'magic'. :idea:
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