Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

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Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby scouserjoe2 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:55 pm

Hi all,

TVS3, Hall and Collins, Q20 with EFTP, Zoom G3X with EFTP, Blue Nebula etc, etc.... just how much difference is there between them that the average player will honestly admit to noticing ??

Yes, I have tried most of these, and recently I set up a sound test using the Q20 with EFTP, the Hall & Collins, and a Zoom G3X with EFTP. I played 'Wonderful Land' three times, each into a separate track in Logic Pro and then muted the same single backing track that I used for all three. Isolating the single BT allowed me to make an exact side by side comparison between each of the three various solo guitar tracks.

The results .. if I am honest .. then I have to say I could hardly tell the difference. With the backing track added to the solo guitar I could not tell ANY difference !

I have no doubt that there are many others out there who have bought and tried all these different units, but for the average player playing mainly at home I have to ask the question 'are the more expensive and complicated options really worth the cost?' In saying that I have to admit to once being an owner of a TVS3 that I bought having heard and been convinced by some very interesting sound samples sent to me by Paul Rossiter. At the time, during a period when I was very critical about what I was playing and how it sounded when compared against the original Shadows' tracks, I did think that the characteristics offered by the TVS3 made a difference. But listening again today, and having listened carefully to the experiment that I have just completed with Wonderful Land, I am left wondering whether all the expense I went to was really worth it.

I suppose it's a bit like buying cars .. yes between a £100 banger and a Rolls Royce there certainly is a stark difference. But for the average man in the street who simply wants to get from A to B, then most makes of cars for much the same budget will do the same thing.

I am getting to feel the same way about Echo units ... Am I being too simplistic or am I just going deaf in my old age? What do others think ?? Be honest, please !!

Cheers,

Ian
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby Stu's Dad » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:55 pm

Ian,

I feel like that about all my gear. I've got a Squier Classic Vibe 50s, a Zoom G7.1ut with EFTP, and a Vox VT20+. At my age - 74 - I see no point in spending large amounts of money for something that's only there for my own amusement. I do have a few more guitars and amps for playing different kinds of music, but my most expensive bit of gear is a Gretsch Electromatic that cost £500 second hand.

If others enjoy Custom Shop Strats, top of the range echo units and Vox AC30s, then good for them. I'm just perfectly happy with my line up.

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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby artyman » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:10 pm

I suspect you are right, I haven't had the good fortune to own a plethora of echo units, an old Zoom G2 with EFTP was my initial weapon, that has recently been replaced with a Blue Nebula that I obtained secondhand, this supplanting the intended purchase of a Hall & Collins unit. I doubt that it would have improved my 'sound' though, the main ingredient being the skill of the player, an area in which I'm sadly lacking.

In the search for the perfect sound much can probably also be said about amplifiers ( a Vox AC30 is far too heavy for me). I have an echo programmed into my Boss Katana 50 and I daresay that the majority of non Shadows listeners are more than happy with what they hear (at least I hope so).

I'm fortunate to own a Gibson Les Paul, does it make me sound like Gary Moore or Joe Bonamassa, nope, chasing sound by buying equipment is no substitute for ability.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby AlanMcKillop » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:28 pm

I agree 100% Ian. Although I haven't owned a TVS, I have owned almost all that was available to us from EFTP, Amtech, Atlantis & ESE and with a bit of EQ, you can get any of them to sound great. The one I preferred, was the Atlantis which I foolishly sold, but have now acquired another which will be a keeper. That along with my Katana Artist, means I will no longer be spending the cash, indeed a few surplus items may soon find themselves in the 'For Sale' category.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby Tone » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:36 pm

You obviously weren't wearing your anorak when you were doing your comparisons, Ian!

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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby dave robinson » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:39 am

I agree with Scouser Joe here, although I did scrutinise a lot a few years ago, trying many different makes and models along the way and to be fair it was fun.
I've got recordings done with all of them and to be honest, my ears were not doing me any favours at that time, as I didn't know it but they were shot.
Not until I had my hearing tested after chemo made them worse, did I regain something close to satisfactory hearing that gave me some sense of accuracy once again and now I find it easy to set a Strat / Echo / Amp to achieve a very acceptable early Hank sound. The problem was that all my mids and treble had been lost, causing poor judgement and over compensating with my gear. Thank God it is now solved.

I had the TVS3 for a while and it is good, but to me it didn't give the tone that a borrowed Meazzi provided and I let it go. I tried a real Binson too which had the sound, but not the patterns, only to find that the Catalinbread sounded 95% as good, but with more head combinations.
The ESE Echomatic was superb, the nearest to the Meazzi, but too fiddly to use on stage and time consuming mid-show, so I moved it on.
On stage, I had been using my self-programmed Vox ToneLab SE with all the correct echo timings and tones until I bought the Line 6 Helix which is better, but that locked up on stage and I lost confidence in it and let it go.
I had the Hall & Collins, eTap2 valve jobbie, Quad GT all at my disposal and only used them occasionally, eventually opting to use the Boss Katana 100 head, which when used with the computer software does everything I need, albeit not perfect echoes, but near enough for our audiences to make favourable comments about my Shadows sound on a regular basis. I acquired the Blue Nebula, which is excellent too, but only gigged it once as it's too fiddly.
My best echo by far if you're looking a pure vintage sound, is my Klempt Echolette which doesn't quite give correct head spacings but is usable, but the sound is pure vintage tone and you can hear the difference between it and all the afore mentioned. That said, it can be fiddly as well so I sick to the Katana FX for my echoes.
I think in all honesty the best option for me to get as close as I can with my gear, would be to use the Klemt Echolette for the valve pre-amp with the Hall & Collins or Blue Nebula, which would provide the vintage tone and perfect echoes, but luckily 99% of our audiences don't wear anoraks and the Katana does a great impression of the Vox AC30, even though the DI into the PA or my Fender Twin Reverb ToneMaster amp. :)
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby abstamaria » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:41 am

Yes, a banger can get you to the cafe. But it will be more fun in the Rolls! Or better a vintage Ferrari! Or a Lotus like Emma Peal’s ...
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby Ubique » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:59 am

A really interesting topic and agree with Scouser Joe totally. I am surprised that no one has mentioned the excellent Vintage Sounds VST programme by Christian Boileau. I am 73 years old and have been playing Shadows stuff since the early 60's using many of the echo units mentioned, though not any of the very expensive ones. I have been using Christians programme for a number of years now and in my humble opinion it sounds just as good and authentic as the top end stuff. And it's free!
Probably not for those who play live but for those who use a PC to make music at home it is brill. Check it out.

http://vintage-sounds.freeforums.net/

A YouTube clip of Christians band The Virtual Shadows playing Wonderful Land with Christian on lead guitar using his VST programme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdooJV6-5rA

Cheers.
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby scouserjoe2 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:48 am

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies. I opened this thread to ask specifically about echo units, so I wasn't really concerned about how different guitars, amps or playing styles and abilities affected the overall results.

abstamaria wrote:Yes, a banger can get you to the cafe. But it will be more fun in the Rolls! Or better a vintage Ferrari! Or a Lotus like Emma Peal’s ...


Sorry, but what does that tell me about echo and effects units ? I was reminded of one of our politicians answering questions on TV this week !!! :-) :-)

Dave, Alan and Neil ...

Thanks for your input. Your observations are interesting and what it seems that you are telling me is that, basically, it's all very much down to the hearing of each individual and also to personal preference. That was the conclusion that I had come to also. There doesn't seem to be any clear winner that all would recommend, although I suspect Charlie Hall and the TVS3 gang would probably disagree. I have listened to Christian Boileau's VST results and both his guitar and also the echos sound very close to the original to my ears. I was impressed with his recent posting of 'Wonderful Land'. However I haven't tried Christain's system because I use a Mac ( I was very happy to change from PC and Windows to Mac some years ago and do not intend to go back nor to install Apple's Windows simulator !).

Personally, of all the units that I have tried I have always returned to the Q20 with EFTP - mainly because it was simply plug in and play (I don't have time nor the patience to spend working out and setting all the individual echo patterns independently). However, compared directly with the other two units in my tests the sound was very 'cold' and 'digital' and the signal strength directly from the unit was the lowest of the three. As Dave as pointed out, the digital machines do fail to produce and overall ambience to the sound that is clearly there in files I have heard from players using a Meazzi or an ESE. How important this is to 'run-of-the-mill' players who are not hell-bent on achieving the perfect replica sound is a different matter .. which was, of course, the purpose of my original question.

Cheers,

Ian
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Re: Echo Machines .. Can you really tell the difference ?

Postby roger bayliss » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:37 am

The VST system as far as I am aware usually uses the software version of eTap2 as I have tried it myself. Christian has produced many accurate covers using his system , which is basically a package of software effects used in a similar way to a software studio setting. This tells me that eTap2 devices like Blue Nebula, Baby Blue and earlier etap builds are all great echos . The TVS has also proved itself in sound demos and the H&C unit.

I personally think the echo is less important than the studio sound and eq applied, including some drive and compression. The echos though need to have correct timings and levels to get accurate results in recordings, but all of the above are capable.

As far as live sound is concerned it is not as important to be totally accurate for audiences, I have seen this many times at our club where two simple delays have been timed up suitably and some eq pedal added. The echos are approximate , yet great results have been produced for live sound.
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