Burns/Baldwin mostly ceased manufacturing by the end of 1967

[mgeek]

My recent purchase of a Double Six has set me thinking hard about this. There were some features about it that made me suspect it to be a late one before it arrived- natural headstock/black logo being the most obvious, but it's sticker date is 10/3/67. Surely there were almost three further years of production of this model? I'm thinking not:

It's widely reported that Baldwin bought Burns in '65, and manufacturing ceased in '70, BUT, I've been doing some pretty hardcore geeking, and I've found NOTHING from the standard (fully made in the UK) range that can definitely be identified as being from 68-70.

Sure, there are the italian bodied ones, which I guess date from later on, but as far as Marvin/Double Six/Bison and assorted basses go...zilch.

My theory is that whilst these models were still available, Baldwin had such a backlog of stock (and parts) from '67 and previously, that there was either no need for new components to be produced of those models, or they were made in VERY small quantities. Or possibly assembled from ready to bolt together parts off the shelf.

Evidence 1 - As previously mentioned- the apparent lack of identifiable 68-70 Burns/Baldwins

Evidence 2 - Serial numbering seemed to move pretty fast between 64 and 67. Alfons Lahayes list shows '64 era numbers to be 4000-8000, 65-66 somewhere between 10k and 18k. What do we have after that? I don't recall seeing a serial no past maybe...25k? (remember I'm not including the italian bodied models here). I know the serial plates were famously unscientificly doled out, but even so- there was always a pattern if you squinted.

Evidence 3 - Per's book speaks of a backlog by 1966 even...why continue manufacturing if there was so much old stock.

I reckon that the UK Burns factory ended up pretty much JUST making necks for the 601/701s etc from '67 til production fully wound down. Baldwin had failed to sell the pretty darned expensive BurnsBaldwin models in the states, and needed a cheap, sellable product, fast! From '68-70, whilst the Burns products were still officially available, few, if any were actually made from scratch.


Anyone got any thoughts? I'd REALLY like to see a pic of a Marvin/Bison/Double Six etc from 1969 or 70, but I suspect I'd be just as likely to see a genuine unicorn

[mgeek]

Haha- has no one got any thoughts on this? I was hoping it'd spark a little discussion/maybe throw up some evidence for and against.

[RayL]

I attended the London Musical Instruments Trade Show in 1967 and picked up catalogues on the Baldwin range. The yellow leaflet has the full range of guitars and basses - GB66 DeLuxe, Vibra Slim, Jazz, Bison, Marvin, Virginian and Double Six, with an insert sheet for the 700 range plus a price list.

The blue catalogue has the amps - Orbit 75, the three Sonics, the two bass amps and cabinets, the three PA amps and the column speaker, and a back page with the treble boost unit, boom mic stand, Sonic amp stand and PA speaker stand, also with a price list.

Somewhere in the cellar i've got a magazine article covering the same show (I'll check the date). BB had a good size stand.

it certainly gives the impression that far from coasting, Baldwin were pushing the whole Baldwin Burns range. Interestingly, the address given for the firm is not the factory in Romford but the Cherry Tree Rise address which was presumably where the management and admin offices were.

The front cover of the guitar catalogue shows the Vibra Slim guitar with the Marvin relegated to page 5, even though the Marvin at 150gns was much more expensive than the Vibra Slim at 127gns. Your Double Six is listed at 132gns.

Ray

[mgeek]

Cool- would love to see the odd scan from that if you can be bothered. Don't think I've ever seen a B/B treble boost.

I wasn't suggesting that they were coasting by '67- more that they were just marketing the stock they already had, rather than being much of an active manufacturing concern.

[JimN]

The 1967 Baldwin catalogue and price list is shown in full, in HQ, on my "UK Musical Instruments" facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151313521736746&set=o.228252110651056&type=3&theater

[mgeek]

Cool!

Couldn't see it without requesting to join, so I have.

[blackguitars.com]

I was wondering about this, and noted that Shergold Woodcrafts Limited company was registered 25th October 1967, and I think Jack and Norm had fully struck out on their own at that time - Quote from Norm - "Alf Garret in Forest Gate, East London was a very good engineer and a very nice man, we rented part of his work shop when we started in 1967/8... in Forest Gate London in the Mews... that back lane where every thing was made, any thing to scrape a living, working 7 days a week all for £20 a week - the amount we managed to pay our selves." - the workshop was in Sprowston Mews, described as a 'muddy little lane' which runs parallel to the Romford Road. I think it would have been a very small operation, presumably just the two of them there, making the Rosetti Triumph / Shergold SG2 Piecrust etc models? I find it hard to believe that Baldwin were funding them to produce anything, given Norm's comments?

I'm not sure when the big Burns/Baldwin's Chesham Close factory closed in Romford - I suppose it's possible bodies and necks were still being made there after Shergold left the building using the same templates/machinery, but... I find it more believable that there were large stocks of bodies and neck in hand, and that, with no further demand to make more, Jack and Norm took the jigs, templates and spare bits along with them? Certainly it is evident that a fair bit of surplus ex-Baldwin fingerboards/bridges etc appeared on the early Shergold stuff, and that raw wood etc from Burns--era was sourced from Jack for the eariest Barry Gibson custom models, I'm guessing Jack took all the unused materials and set up a new factory under the Shergold name once Chesham Rd had ceased employing him for manufacturing, rather than two running concurrently? Perhaps that's why Ray's promo literature from '67 lists the Cherry Tree Rise address instead of the Chesham Close?

[RayL]

Hi Jon

Some years ago I recorded an interview with Norman Houlder and I'd need to replay that to get the dates exactly right but I'm pretty sure that Baldwin were still making guitars later than 1967. Norman, of course, had left for the first time to live in Australia around 1965. Jack stayed with Baldwin for a time after Jim Burns left in 1966. For example, he designed the 'simplified' scroll neck which cut down on manufacturing costs and was used on models including the Virginian and the 700 series.

By 1967, Jack had left Baldwin, Norman had returned from Australia and they had set up in business.

I'm not sure what you mean in this quote
I suppose it's possible bodies and necks were still being made there after Shergold left the building using the same templates/machinery, but... I find it more believable that there were large stocks of bodies and neck in hand, and that, with no further demand to make more, Jack and Norm took the jigs, templates and spare bits along with them?
In 1967 the Baldwin operation was still going strong (as evidenced by the trade fair) and, as Paul Day says (p.36), it was in 1970 all guitar production ceased. Jack would certainly not have been able to leave in 1967, and take jigs and wood with him!

Regarding your comment
Certainly it is evident that a fair bit of surplus ex-Baldwin fingerboards/bridges etc appeared on the early Shergold stuff,
Surely what you mean is that ex-Hayman fingerboards and bridges appeared on the early Shergolds? A look around the Shergold site http://www.shergold.co.uk will confirm.
Ray

[blackguitars.com]

Hi Ray! Nice to hear from you!
What got me thinking about this, was these earliest Shergold guitars made for B&M from presumed circa 1968-69 (the Triumph is listed in a Rosetti catalogue dated 1970):







Paul Day stated that they all feature ex-Baldwin surplus fingerboards, strap-buttons, bridges and Van Gent tuners, so I wondered how he had those parts spare if he had simply left Baldwin, and they carried on production without him. I was also wondering how the 80s/90s custom marvins were made if Jack hadn't still had the original patterns - which I supposed he would not have had if he left Baldwin whilst production was still on-going.

This is just me thinking aloud, and I'd be very interested to hear if Norm's interview if you ever dig it out?

All the best, Jon

[JimN]

Just to add a quick couple of pennies' worth:

The "Rosetti Triumph" guitar (I have a Rosetti catalogue which gives the details) was introduced in (probably) the second half of 1968. I don't think I've ever actually seen one, despite the fact that both Rushworth's and Hessy's (in Liverpool) always tended to get new ranges in very quickly. This suggests to me that the model never had a large production run.

The Shergold guitars, which were an obvious development from the Triumph model, definitely made an appearance at Rushworth's in 1969. I clearly remember their guitar dept manager Bob Hobbs bringing a Shergold solid to a midweek gig (instead of his accustomed Gibson 335) and loudly singing its praises, especially the Lawrence pickups. This was the first time I ever heard the name "Lawrence" in connection with guitar electronics, but not the last. Bobb said he had stripped the Shergold right down and was impressed by its build quality. And he wasn't easy to please.

Aftyer that, the Shergold name disappeared for a while (the facility clearly got involved in the Hayman range in about 1970), but re-appeared in about 1976 after the demise of Hayman (drums and guitars).

I was in A1 Sound in Oxford Road, Manchester, one day in 1976 (yes, I did deign to go there occasionally) and was chatting to the shop's (female) proprietor when a smartly-dressed man walked in with a guitar bag and introduced himself as the rep for either Barnes and Mullins or Rosetti (probably B&M on reflection). He said he had a new guitar to show her. The bag contained a Shergold Masquerader - or something very similar by way of a prototype - and I was one of the first people to see the model in the north of England purely because I was there at the time. Although the new instrument was clearly VERY similar to the Hayman range, I immediately remembered and connected the name with the Shergold guitar I'd seen several years earlier in the hands of Bob Hobbs.

So...

There were two (separate) Shergold production periods, though anyone can be easily forgiven for having missed the first one, which, like "Rosetti Triumph", existed in between the Burns/Baldwin and Hayman eras.